Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Derek Chauvin (2nd nomination)

Derek Chauvin

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I expect this will be controversial, but I do think my argument is valid. This article was AfDed twice before, shortly after it happened, the first of which was delete and the second of which was keep. Nearly five years later, I believe we can address the article on its merits, and whether it results in keep or delete this will hopefully have led to some improvement in the state of things, whether through deletion or improving it to where it clearly has a scope outside of other articles.

Chauvin fails WP:CRIMINAL and WP:NOPAGE. The crime is notable, but as a person he is not, and even if he is notable this article contains virtually no biographical information besides legal cases and all encyclopedic information is already covered on other articles.

Firstly: he fails WP:CRIMINAL, which specifies a person who is known only in connection with a criminal event or trial should not normally be the subject of a separate Wikipedia article if there is an existing article that could incorporate the available encyclopedic material relating to that person. Of course, there are outlined exceptions, and of the guideline's two perpetrator criteria, he fails the first (the victim of the crime is a renowned national or international figure, e.g. politicians or celebrities (whether Floyd himself is notable is a different question that I will not weigh in on, but he was surely not notable prior to the crime happening so this does not apply) and also fails the second. The second prong is thus:

The motivation for the crime or the execution of the crime is unusual—or has otherwise been considered noteworthy—such that it is a well-documented historic event. Generally, historic significance is indicated by sustained coverage of the event in reliable secondary sources which persists beyond contemporaneous news coverage and devotes significant attention to the individual's role.

The problematic part for Chauvin's case is while the murder is clearly notable, his role as a person is not significantly discussed in sources that are not extremely close to the event. Almost all are WP:ROUTINE legal notice and they do not persist[...] beyond contemporaneous news coverage, they are right after the event happened. They are all on the wider societal effects - but not Chauvin or how his life relates to the event. Unlike other killers who may warrant an article, where there was wide discussion about motive and the personal background of the killer, and how it relates to the event, there is none of that here. There is basically no discussion of Chauvin as a person at all outside of breaking news sources and legal notice which do not help for WP:CRIMINAL

Secondly, WP:NOPAGE: even when someone technically fulfills one of our notability guidelines, it is worth considering whether we are best serving the information to the reader this way. Killers who are much more notable, and who clearly pass WP:CRIMINAL, have had their articles deleted because it was better covered or had too much overlap with the main event article, even when it clearly harmed the main event article, or when the main article was extremely lengthy. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, but it gives us precedent to ask the question, would be beneficial to the reader if this information is presented another way? Yes, it would, for this case.

Almost all information in this article is basic legal proceedings, which overlap entirely with the Murder of George Floyd or the Trial of Derek Chauvin article. There are numerous citations to legal documents (which we are not supposed to use on a BLP ever), there is virtually no necessary information in this article that is not repeated in other articles, except that he was attacked in prison (not relevant to notability), and an enumerated and improperly formatted list of conduct complaints (sourced to breaking news).

What does the reader get from having this article, which is not a biography but a list of legal cases, which are already covered on other articles and covered better! If it is possible to write an article on Chauvin that does not duplicate other articles and clearly has a reason to exist besides it being for the sake of it, this is not it, and this article shows no evidence that it is capable of becoming that. PARAKANYAA (talk) 05:13, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Crime, and Police. PARAKANYAA (talk) 05:14, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Minnesota-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 05:35, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Chauvin has been reported on for a number of different crimes, with sources also devoting significant space to his earlier life and career. While Chauvin murdering Floyd no doubt initiated all of this, sourcing is, at this point, sufficient for a standalone article. Cortador (talk) 05:52, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Not per WP:CRIMINAL, the relevant notability guideline. The content that isn't in other articles is unencyclopedic and irrelevant to any notability, and if kept shouldn't even be included in the article (with the exception of his early life, but that is sourced entirely to sparse mentions in articles from the month after the crime). The claim to notability is entirely based on the Floyd killing. PARAKANYAA (talk) 05:56, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. He clearly meets the second prong you discussed for the significance of coverage around his role to this day and in a global context. It isn’t “just contemporaneous.” The reporting on Chauvin has investigated the whole context of his life and career and his role continues to be pivotal to this historic event and the discussions still occurring. This feels like saying Lee Harvey Oswald shouldn’t have an article as his notability is exclusively due to one very historic crime-the crime is of such significance that reliable sources have since investigated and discussed him and his past actions.~Malvoliox (talk | contribs) 15:51, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that analogy doesn't exactly follow. The first prong of WP:CRIMINAL for perpetrators specifically makes an exception for the victim being a celebrity or politician. Oswald killed a politician. Nub098765 (talk) 19:09, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per WP:CRIMINAL: "2. [The crime] has otherwise been considered noteworthy—such that it is a well-documented historic event." We've certainly met that threshold. The trial of Derek Chauvin does not go into the same detail that this article does, in part because not all biographical elements of his life are admissible as evidence at trial. There are details about Chauvin that will never fit cleanly into other articles. Details that readers clearly seek, given page views of this article versus related ones The Savage Norwegian 16:33, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"indicated by sustained coverage of the event in reliable secondary sources which persists beyond contemporaneous news coverage and devotes significant attention to the individual's role." The sourcing does not discuss Chauvin as a person extensively. He was there, he did it, that is all they really say. He is the perpetrator but the sourcing does not focus on him outside of legal notice. Someone like Lee Harvey Oswald has extensive coverage about their life outside of the legal case - Chauvin has almost none. This article is sourced almost exclusively to routine legal proceedings.
Page views are not notability. Whatever details this article has (he went to a certain school, tax fraud case) that the others don't are superfluous and aren't needed to understand the Floyd killing. We have WP:BLP1E for a reason. PARAKANYAA (talk) 17:50, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"The sourcing does not discuss Chauvin as a person extensively." Yes it does: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]. Levivich (talk) 18:11, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
5 of those are from right after the murder happened or trial coverage, so they do not "persist beyond contemporaneous news coverage". The first one has him in the title but I checked it and it recaps the murder and analyzes the murder. It gives no information on him as a person. PARAKANYAA (talk) 18:33, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
What you call "right after the murder" is not what I would call "right after the murder":
May 25, 2020: the murder happened

A few days later, May 29, 2020, WaPo's profile of Chauvin [7]. That is contemporaneous news coverage, right after the murder.

Seven months after the murder, Dec. 23, 2020: "Derek Chauvin: Racist Cop or Product of a Racist Police Academy?" published in the Journal of Black Studies. That is neither contemporaneous, nor news coverage. [8]

Nine months after the murder, Feb. 6, 2021, PBS's profile of Chauvin [9]

Ten months after the murder, Mar. 10, 2021, BBC's profile of Chauvin [10]

Eleven months after the murder, Apr. 20, 2021, CNN's profile of Chauvin [11]

A year and two months after the murder, Jun 25, 2021, NYT's profile of Chauvin [12].

It is not true that the first source--the Journal of Black Studies article--"gives no information on him as a person", e.g.: Chauvin was the product of a highly militarized police academy that molds recruits into human robots programmed to enforce laws that target predominantly African-Americans ... Chauvin’s record with the Minneapolis Police Department included 'at least 17 complaints' ... Though Officer Chauvin had several complaints filed against him, he 'received only two letters of reprimand' ... it is, perhaps, not too great a leap to attribute Chauvin’s homicidal act to being “educated away from . . . [Black] culture” (Asante, 1993, p. 170) as well as living away from it ... Had Chauvin had the benefit of an Afrocentric education and training or even greater exposure to the Black life and culture of the inner city, he may have been able to resist perceiving Floyd as a violent criminal and view with greater empathy a man begging for his life. It's perhaps more psychoanalysis than biography, it's not the most detailed RS about Chauvin, but it certainly gives information about Chauvin.

Take away the WaPo and the Journal of Black Studies articles, and you still have PBS, BBC, CNN, and NYT writing profiles of him months or over a year after the event. And that's just what I found in five minutes of googling his name. Levivich (talk) 18:53, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Those are during the trial, which contemporaneous to that event, they are recapping to remind the audience paying attention to the trial. Look at the headings - "What charges does Chauvin face?" "What has happened since Chauvin's arrest?" etc, yes that's WP:ROUTINE legal developments which will happen with the perpetrator of any murder case. The PBS is not, but is a personal interview with people who knew him which is WP:PRIMARY.

The journal source is, as evidenced by the text you excerpt, useless for developing a BLP, and it does not give information on him that would help developing an article. It's all hypotheticals or abstract he may have been, had Chauvin had the benefit. And two sentences about his police record. PARAKANYAA (talk) 19:01, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You should concede that your statement, "The sourcing does not discuss Chauvin as a person extensively," is not true. Levivich (talk) 19:08, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It discusses him but not "as a person" and not "extensively". PARAKANYAA (talk) 19:12, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand how you can look at the PBS, BBC, CNN, NYT, WaPo articles I linked above (here's another from the Star Tribune), and say they do not discuss him as a person extensively. I think you are misrepresenting those sources by making that claim. Levivich (talk) 19:25, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I was referring to news sources that were not contemporary to the event, both murder and trial. All of the ones you linked are (besides the journal source and the PBS one, which have other issues), and do not count for assessing this kind of interrelated notability. The Star Tribune source is local and shortly after the murder, but it actually discusses his biography outside of recapping the trial so is probably the best thing you have linked. PARAKANYAA (talk) 19:28, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I can't say I agree that page views are entirely irrelevant. Take a step back for a moment. What is the point of notability? What is it for? From the lead of WP:Notability: Article and list topics must be notable, or "worthy of notice". People are noticing this article. They're noticing it more than the Murder of George Floyd and Trial of Derek Chauvin combined. Absent other information, or assuming we can't agree by other notability metrics, I'd say page view stats are evidence the page is notable. Like it or not, he's notorious. The Savage Norwegian 20:52, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Thesavagenorwegian Notorious is not Wikipedia notability which is passing the GNG or an SNG. We do not have articles on highly popular items for which the sources do not exist to fulfill our standards. WP:BFDI as an item gets billions of views - but is not even notable enough for one page. Page views provide no evidence about what sourcing exists. If Chauvin is notable, it is by a dubious interpretation of NCRIMINAL. PARAKANYAA (talk) 21:13, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'm only saying that absent agreement on the criteria itself, secondary factors can be considered. I'm not arguing that popular things deserve articles, I'm arguing that the burden of proof for deletion should be higher on popular articles. I'm not convinced Chauvin is flash-in-a-pan famous. You are. How else do we resolve this impasse? The Savage Norwegian 21:23, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Why should more popular articles face a higher bar for deletion? If, hypothetically, we discovered that Donald Trump didn’t meet notability guidelines (an absurd premise, but bear with me), should it then be harder to delete his article just because myriad people visit it every day? That logic puts visibility over verifiability. You seem to be equating page views with personal interest, but most people who visit the Derek Chauvin article are likely doing so because of the killing of George Floyd, not because Chauvin himself is a subject of enduring biographical or analytical interest. To follow the same logic: if Trump weren’t notable, and people only visited his article to learn about, say, his second presidency, why would we keep the person article instead of merging it into the second presidency of Donald Trump? The popularity of a page doesn’t demonstrate independent notability, it just shows public attention to the event it's tied to. I don't think we should be forced to play argumentative limbo in order to delete a famous page. Nub098765 (talk) 04:55, 30 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This is my point entirely. If a number of editors (not all, mind you) found Donald Trump to not meet notability, I do think the popularity of the article should be taken into account. It would be a large hint that perhaps those deletion-favoring editors were missing something. If readers were going to Donald Trump more than first presidency of Donald Trump, second presidency of Donald Trump, first, and second impeachments of Donald Trump combined I would think yes, there does seem to be some need for a Donald Trump article. You call it argumentative limbo, I call it due diligence.

Now, I don't think that's where we are right now. I think there is a consensus for there being a Derek Chauvin article, vote count being 10:2 at the moment. If it were more tied, I would certainly encourage looking at factors like page views to see what readers are actually looking for. The Savage Norwegian 15:33, 30 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Well, yeah, if someone was involved in as many events as Donald Trump is, it would be beneficial to have an article on Donald Trump. But my argument was his notability being largely tied to on event (the killing of George Floyd). Donald Trump, I would say, wouldn't deserve an article if he was specifically only tied to his second term as president, even if many people visited his page (because most of them would be from the popularity of his second term). Nub098765 (talk) 19:33, 30 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, meets WP:CRIMINAL because the murder of George Floyd is a well-documented historic event, and because sustained coverage of the event in RS persists beyond contemporaneous news coverage and devotes significant attention to Chauvin. WP:NOPAGE arguments don't convince me: the content about Chauvin that is not about his murder of Floyd, e.g. his history of excessive force, his experience in prison, etc., would be WP:UNDUE in articles about the murder of Floyd. Chauvin is a notable criminal. Having an article about Floyd, an article about Chauvin, and an article about Chauvin's murder of Floyd, is the best way to split up coverage of that topic. If we were to combine it, we'd have undue problems, and page size problems, given the vast amount of RS coverage of Floyd, Chauvin, and the murder. Levivich (talk) 18:15, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The prison content is not even due weight here. It is completely unrelated to his notability. The main article can easily address that he had several improper use of force complaints in a paragraph or so. PARAKANYAA (talk) 18:35, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Being stabbed in prison is a significant WP:ASPECT of his biography, and that's covered by WP:NPOV, not WP:N. Significant WP:ASPECTs are included in articles regardless of whether they are related to the subject's notability or not. Levivich (talk) 18:56, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It clearly isn't. Do we have sources reflecting on the ramifications of him being stabbed in prison? no, it's mentioned exclusively by WP:BREAKING news. PARAKANYAA (talk) 19:02, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Here is an international source, written almost a year after the stabbing, about the ramifications of him being stabbed in prison (to wit: he was transferred to another prison): [13]. Levivich (talk) 19:23, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That source is WP:ROUTINE, thing happens, it is reported - there is no reflection or analysis. It is still WP:PRIMARYNEWS. It is a very minor thing that happened to him. Using all the minor details people have slapped on this article as evidence it should be kept is absurd (WP:LIPSTICK). PARAKANYAA (talk) 19:31, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree that being stabbed 22 times is "a very minor thing that happened to him". Levivich (talk) 19:34, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Routine coverage is fine for expanding the article. Not every single source has to establish notability for use in bios.Anonrfjwhuikdzz (talk) 23:30, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

We agree it does not establish notability, then. It is just padding. Prison attacks happen, a prisoner getting attacked does not make him notable. It is undue currently. PARAKANYAA (talk) 23:36, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Strong keep Chauvin became notable through his murder. His history of misconduct against Blacks/NDNs is not covered in depth in either his trial page or the George Floyd murder page; this is not just a rehashing of "better" articles as claimed. George Floyd is nationally recognized, and WP:CRIMINAL allows for exceptions when victims are renowned. There isn't a requirement that a person be renowned prior to death. Others have already articulated that notability is met within cited sources and that profiles of Chauvin were not only in the immediate aftermath of the murder.Anonrfjwhuikdzz (talk) 23:58, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Saying that "George Floyd is nationally recognized after the fact" seems counterintuitive to the whole goal of enforcing WP:CRIMINAL. By this logic, any high-profile crime that makes someone famous posthumously would automatically confer notability to the perpetrator. WP:CRIMINAL is designed to stop specifically this: excessive documentation of people who are only notable because they committed a crime at all. Nub098765 (talk) 03:09, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Somajyoti ✉ 07:29, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per reasons provided by others who voted the same. NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 08:15, 27 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as per other users who have already clarified the most. One section of the policy might not be meeting here but several other policies including other sections of the mentioned policy are meeting it all. It simply goes as per the pov a voter might have for the subject or topics mentioned here. HilssaMansen19 (talk) 20:02, 27 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The fact that this page has now been nominated three times is concerning. All the pages on Wikipedia that need clean-up, that need work, and this is what you're arguing to delete? ash (talk) 02:14, 28 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This argument slides dangerously close to WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Nub098765 (talk) 03:04, 28 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I hope this makes my position clearer then:

Keep: Chauvin is clearly notable. Comment: The fact that this page has now been nominated three times is concerning. All the pages on Wikipedia that need clean-up, that need work, and this is what you're arguing to delete? ash (talk) 07:51, 28 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The last two were before he was convicted, and we shouldn't have had an article then no matter what per WP:NCRIMINAL. Do we need to lionize the guy by giving him an article when it has no content benefit? PARAKANYAA (talk) 16:41, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Chauvin is simply someone who became famous because the person he killed became famous. Not accounting for the various arguments that can be made that it doesn't pass WP:CRIMINAL, the unique bits could very easily be consolidated and put on a related page. People argue about the semantics of rules and the technicalities of their wording when it is much easier for the reader if we summarize the info elsewhere. Nub098765 (talk) 03:08, 28 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
WP:CRIMINAL: the execution of the crime was unusual, noteworthy, and a well-documented historic event. Also Chauvin is famous for killing Floyd (not because Floyd became famous for having died). ash (talk) 12:01, 28 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, if we grant that the article meets WP:CRIMINAL (which I'm still shaky on), the burden of argument lies again not on whether we "can" have a page but whether we "should." If, as you say, Chauvin is "clearly notable," we should then address that most of the sources discuss not him individually but the murder or trial as a whole. While, yes, he should definitely be considered notable in that he should be noted on Wikipedia somewhere, I don't think he's quite notable enough to have his own separate page, considering the tremendous number of sources in this article that don't cover him. The information in the article could, again, be trimmed and placed in a related article. Nub098765 (talk) 18:37, 28 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Yeah, he clearly meets WP:NCRIMINAL because the murder of George Floyd is well-documented, and a massively significant event in American politics. Derek's role has and will continue to have sustained coverage; he's one of the most famous examples of a prepetrator of police brutality. jolielover♥talk 16:20, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
- They really don't focus much on his role, outside of the event, as evidenced by the fact that there is basically nothing encyclopedic here that isn't in other articles. NCRIMINAL says "sustained coverage of the event in reliable secondary sources which persists beyond contemporaneous news coverage and devotes significant attention to the individual's role." No later source says much about Chauvin besides him being found guilty, or him being stabbed. Many people are stabbed in prison, not a notability claim. We can cover all of what he is notable for without having a biography on him. Being famous is not notability if it is in association with one event PARAKANYAA (talk) 16:40, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  NCRIMINAL says "devotes significant attention to the individual's role", not "devotes significant attention to the individual's role outside of the event". You're inserting that part as a requirement, but it's not. There is no doubt that RSes devote significant attention to his role in the crime. There is also no doubt that it has persisted beyond contemporaneous news coverage of the murder itself. You can argue that it is contemporaneous to the various legal proceedings, but in that case, since the legal proceedings are still ongoing as of today, it is just too soon to tell if coverage will persist beyond the legal proceedings.
  
  He doesn't even need to be NCRIMINAL notable because he is WP:GNG notable. A subject doesn't have to meet both; GNG is enough.
  
  WP:BLP1E says that one requirement -- and I gotta say I am so tired of making this point over and over in different deletion discussions when people bring up BLP1E -- is that The event is not significant or the individual's role was either not substantial or not well documented.. There is no doubt that the murder of Floyd was significant and Chauvin's role in it was both substantial and well-documented. There is no point in bringing up BLP1E here, it doesn't apply to this.
  
  Even if he didn't meet any notability guideline whatsoever, there is still the WP:NOPAGE argument for keeping a separate article.
  
  Having an article about a person isn't "lionizing" them. We aren't lionizing Adolph Hitler, after all. Levivich (talk) 21:24, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  @Levivich I didn’t say it was outside of the event but it is certainly more than “was convicted of it” in terms of detail. Otherwise, what perpetrator of a notable crime DOESN’T pass? What would you say is an instance where someone fails? The overall event passes GNG and he is mentioned in concert with that as a subtopic. You can split any big GNG topic into infinite subdivisions in this way where they “technically” pass (like any criminal) but we obviously do not have an article on every perpetrator of a notable mass shooting.
  
  I reject the well documented aspect. We do not have enough material to write an article on Chauvin that is of a tolerable quality, hence my problem with it.
  
  People often do interpret having articles on these kinds of people as “lionizing” them. I think in most cases this is rather idiotic, we are not here to write great wrongs, provided there is a clear encyclopedic benefit to it, but in Chauvin’s case there is no encyclopedic benefit. We are having an article to have an article. I mentioned it because there was an insinuation that I nominated this for immoral reasons. And per NOPAGE we should not have an article, so I’m unsure why you’re bringing that up? PARAKANYAA (talk) 21:56, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  I didn’t say it was outside of the event ... I was responding to what you wrote: They really don't focus much on his role, outside of the event ... The point is, focusing on his role "outside of the event" is not the requirement. It's the opposite, WP:NCRIMINAL says "devotes significant attention to the individual's role" ... the word "role" means role in the event. You can't argue that there isn't coverage of Chauvin's role in the murder of George Floyd -- that would be misrepresenting the sources. And you can't argue that the RS doesn't cover Chauvin outside of the event, because that's not a requirement of any notability guideline.
  
  ...what perpetrator of a notable crime DOESN’T pass? Most of them. Most Wikipedia articles about crimes don't have stand-alone biographies about the participants. One famous example: Killing of Michael Brown.
  
  You can split any big GNG topic into infinite subdivisions in this way where they “technically” pass ... No you definitely cannot. Each subdivision would have to get WP:SIGCOV, that's why you can't keep breaking it down; at some levels of detail, you won't get SIGCOV. What makes Chauvin notable is the SIGCOV of Chauvin.
  
  I reject the well documented aspect If you argue Chauvin's role in the murder of George Floyd is not well documented -- it was recorded on multiple video cameras -- you're just misrepresenting the sources.
  
  in Chauvin’s case there is no encyclopedic benefit "Encyclopedia benefit" -- whatever that means to you -- is not part of Wikipedia's notability guidelines. I don't know what that means to you, but I certainly think there is a great deal of encyclopedic benefit in a biography of George Floyd's murderer. Just like other significant criminals.
  
  The reason why NCRIMINAL, and BLP1E, both talk about significant roles in significant events is because they recognize that the person who has a significant role in a significant event will often pass GNG. Having a significant role in a significant event usually makes a person WP:N-notable (and famous). Levivich (talk) 22:55, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  @Levivich Hm, I probably could have said that better. My bad. What I meant was outside of “he did it”, what is there to say? Any crime is going to have a perpetrator, but what more detail can we go into better here that would not be needed on the main page. He did a crime described on that page and was convicted, described on the main page.
  
  Wilson was never convicted of any crime and there was never a legal determination that a crime had taken place. Nevertheless there is actually far more coverage of Wilson as a person than there is about Chauvin.
  
  Now that we’ve got this example, however, I will use it to illustrate this:
  
  entire academic article just about his speech
  
  massive, entirely about him as a person New Yorker article
  
  https://heinonline.org/hol-cgi-bin/get_pdf.cgi?handle=hein.journals/ichuman16&section=6
  
  book that mentions him 40 times
  
  book that mentions him repeatedly
  
  Wilson is actually probably more notable than Chauvin. Why not have an article on him? He is a significant person in a significant event. What is the difference when the coverage of Chauvin is actually worse? He clearly passes the GNG! PARAKANYAA (talk) 23:40, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  Outside of "he did it", what there is to say: everything in Derek Chauvin § Early life and education and § Career... a.k.a. everything before the murder of Floyd, and everything in Derek Chauvin § Tax-evasion case, § Ramsey County jail discrimination complaint, and § Prison attack... a.k.a everything after the murder of Floyd that's not about the murder of Floyd. None of those sections would belong in the Murder of George Floyd article. Levivich (talk) 00:13, 30 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  And they don't matter at all for understanding the event, which is the entire reason we split it in the first place? They're only included because we presuppose it is notable. You can do this with literally any person accused of a high profile crime. That doesn't mean we should have articles on every person in addition to the biography. What criminal doesn't pass the notability guideline in your logic? PARAKANYAA (talk) 00:52, 30 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  I think understand the criminal is crucial for understanding the crime. The criminal who doesn't pass the notability guideline is the one who doesn't have SIGCOV about them (or otherwise doesn't meet GNG). Yes, many high-profile crimes will result in biographies of the perpetrator being written, and thus the perp will be notable enough for a stand-alone Wikipedia bio. Most crimes, even most notable crimes IMO, won't result in SIGCOV about the perp, and thus no notability for the perp. Levivich (talk) 23:31, 30 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
PARAKANYAA, I appreciate what you're doing but I think we're heading for a SNOW KEEP. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 16:44, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]